Running Notes on Annual Meeting & Workshop
Masonry Heater Association of North America
Wildacres Retreat, Little Switzerland, North Carolina,
April 16-22, 2000
--Submitted by Jay Hensley,
MONDAY, APRIL 17
Welcome: After we'd taken our places around the big
tables in the library, located in the building across
from our lodge, Wildacres resident manager Mike House
welcomed us. Letting us know how pleased he was to
see our group again (this was MHA's fourth annual
meeting here) he launched into a brief history of
Wildacres Retreat, which covers 1,400 forested acres
atop Pompey's Knob mountain. It's located three miles
from the Little Switzerland post office and about
halfway between Blowing Rock and Asheville.
I. D. and Madolyn Blumenthal bought the property
for $6,500 in 1936. Ten years later they dedicated it
"to the betterment of human relations and interfaith
dialogue." Still in the Blumenthal family, Wildacres
has become a unique and very affordable conference,
meeting, and workshop center for non-profit and
Facilities include two guest lodges of stone and
rough-hewn siding, a similar building housing the
kitchen and dining hall, a library and auditorium, a
mineral and lapidary workshop and pottery studio.
Each guest rooms has a ceiling fan, comfortable beds,
baseboard heat, bathroom, no radio, phone or TV.
Gem and mineral displays attest to the variety of
mines in the area. You can visit mineral and gem
mines nearby, as well as the North Carolina Mineral
Museum, Mount Mitchell (highest peak east of the
Rockies) and Grandfather Mountain. Hiking trails and
rocking chairs beckon, and the view is magnificent.
ANNUAL MEETING 2000 COMMENCES
President Pat Manley opened the meeting. Those
present included Norbert Senf (secretary), Rod Zander
(treasurer), Bev Marois (MHA administrator), Jerry
Frisch, Ernst Kiesling, Albie Barden, Dan Fisher, Gary
Hart, Ben Hurd, Ron Karson, Peter Solac, Walter Kelly,
Martin Pearson, Ben Sotero, Rebecca & Dann Carnes, and
Jay Hensley. (John LaGamba, vice president, Ben Hurd
and Tony Cuoco would arrive soon, while Tim Custer
would join us in another day or two. Tom Trout, who
lives nearby, popped in and out as often as he could
during the week.)
Pat announced a change in the agenda: Ernst will be
giving his presentation this am, continuing this
afternoon with more discussion concerning his
presentation for those who wish to attend. Others can
go down to the bricks and mud area behind the barn and
start preparations for building the bake oven.
Jerry said, "We're in the code now!" and gave everyone
a copy of the big fat Masonry Fireplace sections for
both the IRC and IBC Drafts for 2001. A committee at
Wildacres will go over this and see if everything is
okay, or is some more changes are in order. (We
worked on this at length last year at Wildacres.
Jerry took it from there, working with Jim Buckley,
and got our masonry heater recommendations accepted
for the year 2000 code books, which are revised each
Dann Carnes said that we need to work on the funding
proposal to get an MHA grant, something we had decided
to go ahead with last year at Wildacres.
Rod said we need a subcommittee to complete the MHA
brochure revision, which we worked on at Wildacres
last year. Bev has it in good shape now except for a
final review of the revised copy and a final
determination on heater photos to include.
Pat said MHA is now active in the Masonry Alliance for
Codes and Standards--called MACS--which will give us
some good clout.
Norbert did a brief review of the OMNI clearance
testing of masonry fireplaces, which MHA thinks is not
directly applicable to masonry heaters. We plan to do
our own testing of recommended clearances here at
Wildacres and develop a testing protocol to submit to
OMNI. We should be able to put our findings and
recommendations on line sometime in late June after
the meeting in Sonoma County, California. Norbert
said he can send OMNI a link on the internet.
Pat plans to present a slide show for us one evening
on his recent Guatemala adventure. He was a volunteer
with a team ("Masons on a Mission") that went to
Guatemala and built masonry cook stoves for families
in a poor Mayan Indian village on a high plateau.
There were a few new faces around the table since last
year: John Fisher's father Dan (Pennsylvania), Ben
Hurd (Missouri), Ron Karson (Ontario), Peter Solac
(Minnesota), Wally Kelly (Pennsylvania), Marty Pearson
(Massachusetts), and Tony Cuoco (New York).
Ernst Kiesling's presentation
on Technical Calculations for a Kachelofen
Ernst and his wife Maria own/operate Canadian
Kachelofen, Kiesling Wood Fired Heating System Ltd. in
Blockhouse, Nova Scotia. Ernst designs and builds the
heaters, cook stoves and bake ovens. Maria makes the
unusual, colorful, beautiful and often free-form tiles
that help turn each Kachelofen into a unique work of
Ernst shared with us in great detail the technical
calculations he has worked out for making sure each of
his custom heaters suits the house/space for which it
is designed. Distributing his thick handout around
the table, he said, "This is the beginning of a lot of
calculations we will work out together today. . . The
Austrian Masonry Heater Guild used this system to
start their computer program."
Ernst spent 1,000 hours or more to develop this
system. "It takes time, but it works out fine. All
my heaters are done with these calculations, and it
works, and it will burn clean if you use the right
firewood." He said the fuel must be untreated wood,
dry and the right size. His calculations are for 12
hours, assuming two firings a day.
Some combustion basics
He discussed such things as the drying process,
decomposition into gases and carbon, transformation of
carbon into gas., oxidation of gasses, emissions from
complete and incomplete combustion, high burn
temperature, excess air, residence time of combustion
gases, good mixing, time and turbulence--"To bring
this into our stove, all of this is very important."
Starting the fire. "Start with kindling, burn five
minutes, then put wood on top. I educate everyone,
show them how, all of the process, but they don't do
it! So I get calls at 8 o'clock, saying, 'What do I
but they don't do it. So I get calls at 8 o'clock
saying, "What do I have to do starting the fire?'"
"Closing of the air intake at the right time is
important. Too early, you bring the temperatures down
and have incomplete combustion and a dirty burn. Too
late, and you cool off the fire."
CONSTRUCTION OF STOVE
Firebox: Factors to consider and work out are size,
relation to amount of firewood, volume of combustion
gases, length of stay in firebox, height of firebox,
size of its exit opening into heat channels, etc.
Chimney: It needs a certain cross section area,
minimum height, etc.
It should be an interior chimney.
Basic information needed from customer/contractor:
Get all facts possible: average climate temperatures,
location of heater, construction of chimney, height of
ceiling, height of chimney, rooms to be heated (is the
heater for the whole house or one room?). Bricks,
stucco, soapstone, ceramic--what does the customer
want? Bake oven, hot water heater? You need a plan
of the house and measurements (square footage, height
of rooms, etc.), construction, R-value of insulation,
type of windows, etc.
Next comes the design of the heater, technical
calculations, construction details, and realization.
"NOW WE HAVE THE CALCULATIONS THEMSELVES TO DO: These
are meant for kachelofens, but you can use/adapt them
for your heaters. No stove should be put in a room
without heat-load calculations. If you undersize or
oversize a stove, you get it all wrong. . .
"I must find out how much heat output is needed for my
stove. I need to know how much heat comes from one
square meter of my stove." (His calculations are all
in the metric system of weights and measurements.)
Someone asked him what about when quick heat is
Ernst said, "If you want quick heat, build a cook
stove and you get quick heat from the cooktop. The
heavy masonry gives heat storage."
As Ernst led the group through compiling all the
information needed, then working out the complicated
and precise calculations for a kachelofen (assisted by
pages and pages of charted numbers and then the graphs
he generated from the calculations), I was lost. . .
but I understood the principles here and realized why
all the figuring was necessary to suit the size and
materials and heat output of the heater to the house
or room for which it is intended.
A few of the points Ernst made:
* We lose at least 15 percent of the heat to make the
draft and that
affects the heat output we need.
* Then we calculate how much wood for one fire to get
output for 12 hours. We plan to fire one time in the
morning and one time in the evening.
* Another factor is burning time.
"You may need more than one hour
in some cases." Burning time in minutes calculated
for a certain load (26.5 kg) of firewood came to
75 minutes. Then he figured out the volume of
smoke in one second; "This is the firebox volume."
* "We include a gas slot in one of the first heat
channels so gasses cannot accumulate to explode. We
don't use a damper."
* "After figuring out the necessary cross section of
the firebox exit into heat channels, you can make it
10 or 15 percent bigger. But if you make it too big,
that slows down the gas flow."
* Smoke should go into the chimney at a temperature of
at least 150 degrees Centigrade (302 o F) and exit the
chimney at no less than 80 degrees Centigrade (176o
* Each heat channel is smaller than the one before as
the volume of the flue gases decreases. So you figure
out the graduated sizes. If you have a long run (such
as for a channel in a heated bench), treat it as two
channels and gradually reduce its size, which adds one
THE RESULT OF OUR CALCULATIONS:
We ended up filling
in all 23 of the criteria needed in determining the
design and construction details for a kachelofen
heater to suit a particular location, space and
situation. Step by step as Ernst explained it, it all
seemed possible after all.
He said, "Making all these calculations gives
something to someone who inspects our heaters to see
that we have a clean-burning stove."
MONDAY AFTERNOON SESSION
Discussion on Continuing Education:
us of the continuing education requirement of MHA's
Heater Mason Training and Certification Program.
(Within each five year period after certification,
certificate holder must successfully complete an MHA
continuing education workshop and test, or other
relevant professional credential deemed equivalent by
the MHA.) "Today' session with Ernst will probably
qualify and we'll discuss it later."
Ernst said that if there's enough interest and
financial compensation to make it feasible, he would
convert his calculations from the metric system to the
U.S. standard and make sure terminology is right, etc.
Then it could perhaps be offered through the MHA web
We're not sure how to compensate Ernst on this.
Norbert commented that he and Jerry had worked with
John Gulland on writing the heater builders reference
manual, and Gulland was compensated for that. Also, an
MHA version of John Gulland's book on venting was
incorporated after licensing into the heater builder's
manual. Maybe we could do that with Ernst's project,
Several members left for the bricks-and-mud area and
the rest stayed on with Ernst.
Discussion on stucco--Ernst has found a good new one,
with good elasticity. He'll let us know the specifics
when he has tested it further.
Tom Trout was in Munich recently. He told us, "They
would warm the heater and then start to stucco it at
about 100 degrees so it wouldn't stick to the brick
and would be its own shell.
Ernst said he heats the kachelofen up before applying
stucco and if the heater gets some cracks they will be
covered. After it cools he applies the stucco, using
Fiberglas mesh with the first coat.
Tom said he has made whitewash (with lime and sand and
no Portland) and has told people to paint over the
stucco. Ernst suggested putting cellulose fiber in
Discussion on expansion joints.
* You can use corrugated cardboard in an expansion
joint. It turns to ash during firing.
* Make the joint size as small as possible.
* Using grog gives less expansion in mortar joints.
Tom said it's more expensive. He likes it, but it
would add $200 to cost of heater.
* When you put a tint in stucco, you can't finish it
with a sponge.--Tom
Ernst's vision for the future
"The main problem to solve is how to convince people
that this is not the dangerous way to heat, as some
people want to tell us. This is environmentally
friendly and this is the best way to heat the house
from the standpoint of health. We need to create the
market awareness. Over the next 40 years we need to
make this change because we won't have oil! "
Peter Solac: "Money is not a problem for my customers,
it's comfort they're after. In Minneapolis, they're
hungry for fireplaces now."
Rebecca: "It's important to educate some of the green
building bunch about masonry heaters, because they
just don't know! . . .
Rebecca: And what about kitchen stoves? Ernst said
they're getting more popular. They're building 25,000
masonry cook stoves a year for customers in Europe.
People can cook, bake and have hot water from them.
Rebecca: Do they usually have another cooking stove,
Ernst: Yes, but they use these masonry cook stoves
not only in wintertime and in cold weather, but also
in a weekend cottage."
Tom said he gets customers with a big house and he has
to tell them he cannot heat it with one masonry
heater. Ernst runs into that same problem.
Discussion on unauthorized firing of masonry heaters:
MHA 200 One example-- During construction,
carpenters and workers over-fired the heater, burning
lots of scrap wood and trash, and caused a house fire.
Earnest reacted vehemently: "Nobody fires my heater
without my permission!"
Rebecca: "Do you make a combination fireplace-heater?"
Earnest: "Yes. People like to watch the fire. I
make the big glass door . . . I make it differently
and call it a high efficiency fireplace. It's a
TUESDAY, Wildacres 2000
Safety Testing Our Heaters
Norbert instructed us on the testing equipment and
testing procedure to be used on the generic heater
constructed by members in the bricks-and-mud area down
behind the barn.
Norbert: Because masonry heaters are not covered in
the building code, testing needs to be done to
determine the safety factor as it affects clearances.
Tulikivi and other factory-made units can get UL
listing, but that's not the way to go for us (custom
builders) because its very expensive to get and keep
We've used what we can out of the code. It's
basically up to us--we're the experts--to make the
decisions concerning masonry heaters that will go in
What we go by and recommend now is 4-inch clearance to
combustibles and some people disagree with that, for
instance Walter Moberg. We're in two of the codes,
referencing ASTM, but there are different levels of
inclusion--we're a "guide" and we need to be a
"practice." The codes don't care about emissions;
they are concerned with clearance to combustibles. So
we need to assure public safety.
What we have is known to be safe construction. Walter
Moberg said UL tests your fire until it's stabilized,
and that doesn't work for masonry heaters.
We'll fire our test heater until we deem it
unsafe--over 117 degrees above ambient on a
combustible surface 4 inches away. That's a concept
we may want to use.
We need to define a heating protocol. UL says keep
adding brands, and that's expensive. We want to use
cordwood as our protocol. The standard fuel load on
the heater we're building is 50 lbs of wood. We
should do from three to five 50-pound fuel loads, one
right after the other, measuring all temperatures at
4-inch clearance. In this known safe construction,
how many times do you need to over-fire it to make it
reach 117 degrees F above ambient? We'll have to pass
the scrutiny of people like UL because we want to
If we over-fire it by x number of times to reach 117
degrees, then that's the limit and it would be a
reasonable argument to make.
It's a little different from what they do in Europe,
where there's lots of experience with masonry heaters
and lots of history. Their take on it is that if you
screw something up, it's your fault as the user and
the heater builder is not responsible. But in the US
it's got to be idiot-proof. We call it the teenager
protocol. Their folks are gone and the teenagers in
the house really crank the heater up and keep chucking
wood in it--a worst-case scenario.
We have three different thicknesses in the heater
we're testing: standard 8-inch brick wall, 4-1/2
firebrick wall, and 8-inch soapstone. Soapstone is
much more heat conductive. During and after the ice
storm in the northeast, people were heating houses
with masonry fireplaces for days on end and several
houses burned down and several people died. We have
to build the thing to be in the worst-case scenario.
Basically, nobody has any data, so we're being
proactive and we're going to get some data. Tulikivi
does have some data, but it's proprietary.
We don't need a plywood enclosure 4 inches away;
we'll just check the surface temperature of the
heater, with 350 degrees F the maximum surface temp.
If it's hotter than that, it's not really a radiant
heater anymore. Other figures are 230 and 140
(Kachelofen). We run ours (Heat Kit) at 160 or so. On
our test last January, I got a bare core up to 350 by
firing it twice. With a facing on it, it would be
Tools for testing:
Norbert: We'll need this point-and-shoot infra-red
thermometer, a scale and cordwood. We'll make a graph
and take readings at different points And we'll use a
moisture meter to test the moisture content of our
wood. . . That's the basics.
He also showed us a combustion analyzer. He said it's
useful to know if it's running any excess oxygen
because that could be cooling your firebox. They use
these in Germany for testing oil furnaces. Norbert
explained how to use it.
In perfect combustion there wouldn't be any oxygen in
the exhaust. Burning cordwood is extremely
complicated, as Ernst said. In a good combustion
system you use 200 to 250 percent excess air. It's
hard to get a clean burn with any less excess air.
Measuring flow: Gas-flow measuring equipment gives a
reading in feet per minute down to 300 ft per minute,
with a high reading of 1,000.
He also showed us a thermo-anonometer, which is
similar to the air-mass meter they use in cars with a
fuel injection system. We can use it to see how much
air the heater is consuming.
Norbert: It's basically a matter of how good your
data is. If you have preconceived notions, it can
affect your reading.
The hottest point is usually going to be on the center
in the back of the heater.
Ernst Heuft (fifth generation heater builder) tells us
a 4-inch clearance is the ideal, but I'm not sure now
that it's true. . . and we can find out with our
testing. So it's better not to have a preconceived
Norbert: We plan to make an ASTM recommendation based
on our testing here. The standard has to get
resubmitted (editorial changes only--it has to be
re-voted on every 5 years or it's dead) and re-voted
on and be good for another five years. Specify a
fueling protocol, that's our next piece of business.
"We're assuming it's a ventilated wall [only air space
between wall and heater] in our testing here at
Tulikivi wants to be in the code, not just UL listed .
. . Because you have to maintain your listing, and
that gets expensive.
Someone could design a heat shield and have it
fabricated--nothing could keep us from doing that, a
A factory unit is technically "site built" because
it's assembled on site.
We're testing the firebox outer wall here, because
that's the hottest area.
We've taken all that information from Europe's masonry
heater people on faith, but something they did was
different--smaller heater or small wood--and they said
we had to use grates. Later, when we did testing at
VPI, our heaters with grates didn't test cleaner and
that was an eye opener, and it made us get up to speed
TUESDAY AFTERNOON SESSION
Bev Marois: It's been a busy year. We currently have
55 members, which includes 48 full members and 7
associate members, plus 10 people on our new board of
The bookstore at our Web site is doing well. It's one
of biggest accomplishments. MHA members books are
highlighted, and we've made $900 profit from the
bookstore since December. We're selling MHA T-shirts
and color brochure on the web, too.
Inquiries average 35 per month, up from 22 per month
Eighty-five percent of our leads came by phone from
people who visited the web site. Countryside magazine
out of Wisconsin ran a masonry heater article by Mark
Klein , which brought in 52 inquiries, and now we
have a listing in Countryside that has generated 20
inquiries so far.
Bev handed out some camera-ready repro for everyone.
* Two generic owner's manuals Jerry developed : "Home
Owners Safety Manual and Burning Guide for Masonry
Cook Stoves and Bake Ovens" (four pages) and "Home
Owners Safety Manual and Burning Guide for Masonry
Heaters" (three pages).
[Editor's Note: Jerry submitted these to us at
Wildacres '99--handouts he was using with his own
customers--and we worked on them some at that time.
Since then he and Bev further revised and edited them
to incorporate many of our suggestions.]
* Jay's "Back-page Freebie" (consumer education
camera-ready feature) on masonry heaters: "The
masonry stoves of Europe gain a strong foothold in
North America," updating one she did a few years ago
while she was editor/publisher of SNEWS, The Chimney
Sweep News magazine. [The stove mason in the drawing
was done from a photo Jay took of Jerry at work.] Bev
said she would copy other useful Back-page Freebies
and send a packet of them to members. These can be
reprinted and used as handouts for clients and /or
prospective-clients. Jay will work with Bev on this.
Rod handed out and commented on his detailed
treasurer's report. We went over and discussed
various line items on both his Profit and Loss
Statement for 1999 and his Budget Overview for the
year 2000. In 1999 our expenses added up to $1,315.10
more than our income, but our assets ("total
liabilities & equity") as of April 15, 2000 came to a
total of $18,283.14.
Rod reported a donation of $300 from Jerry. This
earned Jerry a soapstone masonry heater model
(complete with heat channels) hand-crafted by Pat
Manley, who donated it in accordance with our deciding
last year on this as a way to generate more income.
Jerry was the only one to respond to this one-time
offer. Pat presented his mini-heater to him and we
all expressed our appreciation to both of them.
Our web master's report
Norbert reported a total of 200,000 hits on our MHA
site over the course of the year, with about 100
megabyte a day getting downloaded.
People ask Bev for a list of members. It's on the web
site, but people said they didn't see it. So now the
membership list has a "Find a mason" heading. Also,
certified members are featured--click on that and it
takes you to a page listing them.
Web site deal for paid-up members: Send five photos,
good ones, of your heaters and some copy (contact
information, etc.), and Norbert will put up a basic
web site page for you with a link from the MHA web
site and mall. You can also register your site with
an internet server for around $40. (Norbert has his
Heat Kit.com site registered with a server.) You can
have someone else design a fancier site for you if you
want. You still pay the MHA rate of $10 per month.
There have been quite a few reports of members getting
jobs off their web sites.
Norbert: We have about 60 mgs of information on line.
We can have all the traffic we want. without added
fees. The main thing most MHA masons need is good
photos of their work.
Jerry on ASTM and HPA
Years ago, Carter Keithly (HPA administrator) asked
what he could do for our industry, and I said ,
"Create an MHA caucus for us!"
He did and we went to it for years (during the HPA
shows) , then the chairperson changed and it became a
heater manufacturers caucus and we [custom builders]
got left out. For three or four years we little guys
didn't have a voice. Last summer I asked John Crouch
if we got three guys to add up to $1,000 for one HPA
membership/vote, could we go to the caucus. He said
that, because of a by-laws change, there's a new
caucus for us now, a masonry products caucus. That
means the caucus is no longer a manufacturers-only
So we got a lot of mileage from the HPA show in
Baltimore this year, attending the caucus and also
having the first meeting of our new MHA board of
HPA is supporting us in the codes, too. But we do
have to participate and stay active. We had three
serious meetings at the HPA show this spring.
We're in the ASTM, but every five years we have to
revise and modify and re-issue our parts on masonry
heaters, or it can stay as is and it's renewable. If
you don't do anything within 8 years, it's gone.
John: Now that more of us are involved in HPA,
they'll do more for us. They've been very generous,
have agreed to further testing, engaged OMNI to write
a report from their testing, peer review from Dennis
Jams, etc. MHA members should join the HPA!
When you encompass all these hearth industry companies
under one umbrella, we can get more done, have an
agenda, etc. Every dollar we've invested comes to us
20 times over. We've just tapped into this vein now.
More good news is that HPA membership fees are coming
Dann Carnes. If you join Canadian HPA, that makes you
a member of HPA, too.
Peter: The caucus is not just for masonry heater
people. It includes other masonry products, too. A
portion of the dues goes back to the regionals. John
LaGamba is chairman of the caucus. Remember that the
squeaky hinge gets the oil. There were 25 or 30
attendees altogether, a dozen of them from the masonry
We need a plan of attack for what we want to ask money
for. The money was very easily awarded, due to a
commitment made by HPA to spend a lot of money for
research and testing. John Crouch and Paul Tiegs, both
on our board of advisors, also came to the caucus.
Peter: HPA got state and national money for them in
John : It's good to have the backbone of that huge
organization behind us.
HPA made use of the research report Norbert did up in
Canada for CMHC (Canada Mortgage and Housing
Corporation), and that helped in the Minnesota
venting recommendations situation. [This refers to
Norbert's published research paper on combustion air
needed for a masonry heater in a tight house, without
outside air provided, and whether or not burning the
heater depressurized the house. It didn't.]
Norbert: Another ventilation regulation crisis is
happening in Vermont and we need to get on it. We
need someone there who can speak to the subject.
They're going to be looking at their ventilation code,
talking about sealed combustion and using a fan,
fixing one mistake with another. . .
Board of Advisors meeting
Jerry: Mike Van Buren from HPA [also on our board of
advisors] was chairman. They talked about codes,
developing our own masonry heater standard acceptable
in the marketplace at code level. They also discussed
the fueling protocol--brands or cordwood., etc. And
they recommended running a survey of masonry heater
owners, how they use them, also taking a look at the
methods and results of past testing of heaters and
what we've learned.
We should develop a list of customers, good names,
and HPA will hire a survey company. I think we'd
have input into questions on the survey.
Bev: Give me between one and five names of good
customers for the survey. I'll send an e-mail to
Dann: We may find customers are over-firing, and can
take that into consideration.
Rod's Report on ASTM Meeting
ASTM met in Toronto last week. Who was there from
MHA? Norbert, Rod, Jerry, John LaGamba, Gabrielle
Callender, and Ron Karson: plus Mike VanBuren and Rick
Kurkeet from our Board of Advisors. Former member Tom
Stroud was also there.
Rod: We reviewed the ASTM document as it pertained to
masonry heaters and updated it. There was consensus
that it's in our interest to update and get the
document re-accepted, so we went through and did all
the editorial changes. Three issues need more
substantial work--we reviewed and tabled them, leaving
them as they were in the original. Rick will submit
our edited version to go to ballot to be re-accepted.
These three other things our group needs to get busy
on: (1) Reworking definition of what a masonry heater
is; (2) Finding out what moving from a "guide" to a
"practice" involves; (3) Creating a testing protocol
to come up with some definitive answers that can be
substantiated with numbers to address safety issues.
Next ASTM meeting will be two years from now in
Masonry Alliance for Codes and Standards (MACS)
Rod: Next MACS meeting will be the first week in
October and that's the best place for those who are
also ASTM members to meet again and become more
involved. It costs $65 per year to join ASTM, which
gives you a vote--a very worthwhile investment. You
can go as a non-member, you just can't vote. You get
to choose one book of standards free if you join, and
that's worth more than the membership fee. They also
have a newsletter. You can give those to an engineer
friend if you don't read them. Five of us from MHA
were at the ASTM meeting, which is a good showing.
MACS is a good outfit for us to join and well worth
the money. At code hearings, MACS works on all sorts
of issues relating to masonry. There is a united
front and few floor arguments. It helps to be part of
a larger proposal and we can get mention of masonry
heaters. Only organizations can join as a voting
member. You can join as an associate member for about
$200, but no voting right goes with that. It carries
political weight for us to join.
Jerry: I think we're going to get a lot of mileage
from joining MACS.
Rod: Already I sense a shift in attitude, like, "Hey,
you finally joined the club!" Before, we relied on
our friends there to keep us posted.
More about testing heaters
John: Are we going to work out a fueling protocol for
Norbert: Yes. We'll get a higher burn rate with
cordwood. . .
Rod: It will be very helpful to us to see what
happens when we over-fire the heater. Michael Van
Buren said HPA does have money for a testing protocol.
So this is the preliminary testing to relate to that.
Mike wanted to know if MHA could also put some money
into testing, and I said we'd put in a nominal amount.
Norbert: We'll all get up on the learning curve from
what we do here. We can put forward a proposal on
what we think a safety test should look like. Then
they can take that to a lab to consider our work. We
may over-fire a unit three to five times and reach the
heat limit. We've got a good product, we can afford
to take the high road. We need to find out for
ourselves what we consider to be safe.
John: We need to get to Mike before the funds
disappear. Could we be ready Thursday to make a
Norbert: If we start a fire in the heater tonight and
try it out, we could start our fire in it tomorrow
for our testing. If we have all our testing done by
Thursday, we should be able to put a recommendation
together on Friday.
John: Then maybe we can tell Mike , "We'll come to
you by such and such a date."
Norbert: If we can do it here it's great, while we
have everyone here. Otherwise, the process gets to be
e-mail back and forth and it's hard to move forward if
there's any disagreement. If there's disagreement
here, we can work it out usually and walk away with
Jerry: We're now in IBC and IC.
We can shirttail on the back of what's already done.
That way we can get in with the least resistance and
it would be a back-up, because right now we're
vulnerable by only being a "guide" in ASTM.
There could just be a statement added, "except for
masonry heaters, which etc." Subtle things like that
will show the code does recognize masonry heaters over
and above the ASTM. Then we could get Jim Buckley to
review it. He's an advocate for us already.
Jerry: I want help from you guys on where we can
insert things [in the IRC and IBC drafts for 2001]
that will help us.
[Editor's Note: Subsequently, Rod, Jerry, Dann and
Peter spent about four hours one afternoon on the
porch of the lodge, going over both codes and
red-lining areas where we should be able to add stuff
and reference ASTM for the exceptions. In the next
stage, Jerry will work all that through with Jim
ADJOURN TO BRICKS-AND-MUD AREA
MHA: WILDACRES 2000
WEDNESDAY, APRIL 19
Discussion on where to meet next year
Albie described a place in Western Massachusetts,
Sirius in Shootsbury, that's set up for this kind of
meeting. He thought we'd like it.
John told us about a rustic place in Toronto similar
in some respects to Wildacres, "but just a grade above
camping": bunkroom, three beds to a room, center rec
room, meeting rooms, trails between buildings, $60 per
day room and board, communal bathrooms, and they heat
with wood, They run courses there and teach straw
bale construction. It would be a compromise in
comfort, but they're receptive to us building a heater
there and would trade it for our accommodations, which
MHA would get the money for. It's 45 minutes from the
A lot of people go through there who would be
interested in what we're doing. It's a good place for
an inside heater.
We could shuttle to and from the airport with John
LaGamba, who lives nearby. Also, there are alternate
Norbert called it an ecology retreat center. There
are masonry heaters in some houses in the area. area,
Norbert has one of his in a different type of
sustainable house that we might be able to visit.
Albie: I like the concept of building something to
leave there. Wherever we go, it's the best way for
connections among individuals.
Rebecca--Weren't we talking about building an oven
here at Wildacres?
Pat said Philip (Blumenthal) didn't know where the
bake oven would go. Also, they just had a complete
change of kitchen staff and he hadn't sounded him out
yet and he didn't want to push it at that point.
Pat said he spoke with one of the chefs this morning,
who thought it was a great idea. I invited him to
come down to bricks-and-mud area today and he said he
would. . . A swap option might be available.
John: We couldn't give it away this year!
Rod: Talk to Mike (House) about the site. Maybe we
could schedule it as a separate workshop and use it as
a fund raiser and for instruction.
Dann Carnes said he likes the idea of a separate
Peter: Some of us could bring our staff, new masons
in the company.
Rebecca: It would bring in some money and possibly
some new members.
Pat likes the separate workshop idea, too. Peter
suggested having several workshops in different
regional locations. .
Norbert: For any of this to happen we need someone to
step forward to take charge of it. That's what the
success of it depends on. Or we need a game plan
fleshed out enough so Bev can do all the organizing
with someone else assuming responsibility for it.
Peter: Manufacturers could maybe help sponsor a
workshop--there's the potential for their getting more
dealers from the workshop, and they'd have someone on
salary to work on it. Also, the manufacturers could
donate materials and we'd save that money. John said
"That's a very simple process."
Albie said that in his workshops he's paid by the
owner for building the heater and by attendees for
teaching them how and giving them hands-on experience.
If it's brick, okay, if it's stone you're asking for
trouble. He might be interested in running a workshop
Albie warned that things don't always go smoothly:
"We did a nightmare workshop in hurricane weather,
cycling people through." He has found six to be a
good number. If you have several very skilled masons,
and several owner-builders, the teacher can lay down
his trowel. When you get up to as many as 10, it gets
pretty heavy, but it can be done. You get maximum
learning from custom building a heater from scratch. .
.you're also exploring masonry heating from its early
history. . . and that all helps create a design
Local vocational schools can play host, another
With a large group, the pain of diamond saw use can be
spread out--and that's the critical tool to
Jerry: We need to put our heads together to create a
generic heater sanctioned by the MHA to use in a
workshop--something everyone needs to know how to do.
Albie: We need to line up our ducks so everything's
in place at the right time. That's not easy--clients
John : It would help if could have two workshops at
one location in tandem.
Most of Bev's inquiries are masons who want to come to
a workshop and NOT come to the annual meeting. If
they're serious about masonry heaters, they'll want
to join MHA and also go to a workshop.
Tony Cuoco said he'd rather not have come to a
meeting, but once here he decided that's been good,
too. He did expect more bricks and mud experience
Rebecca: We need to provide an opportunity for
someone to get into the craft without being hit with
regulatory stuff and problems MHA is facing.
Norbert: We could have a workshop going on at the
same time as the annual meeting. Or Jay is building
house in Kentucky--when she knows the schedule we
could plan a workshop there.
Rod: Or have our annual meeting here, then have a
workshop at the Toronto place where we do the trade.
I don't like the idea of combining the two--I see them
as two different needs. Some of the members have been
involved over a 15 year period--with process of
discussion and hands-on and experience out in field
and contacts. . . This facility with the comfort,
beauty and ease of being here is very conducive to
getting our business done. It didn't happen when we
met with HPA. We've streamlined the business aspect
of it, and MHA work is being done on an ongoing basis.
This process is now happening year 'round and the
number of people doing it has increased--six members
at ASTM, five at MACS.
I see the need for a workshop being expressed from
many different directions. It's just not going to
work very well in combination with our business
meeting, so let's keep these separate. Sweep training
last year didn't work; nobody signed up. We've had
hands-on workshops every year here.
Norbert: The big decision is where do we go for our
meeting next year.
Mike said Wildacres may do a project of building
cabins and put a masonry heater in each one. If we
don't come back here, we may lose that opportunity.
Albie: As a workshop teacher, I would not like to be
in competition with meetings. And something built for
hands-on knowledge should be permanent. The center of
someone's home, attention to workmanship, pride of
accomplishment, the heart of the craft. . .Yesterday
we did a quick-and-dirty masonry core, while Pat was
giving incredible attention to detail with the bake
oven and it just killed me to think of it being torn
Motion on the table, and seconded: That next year's
meeting be held here.
Albie These (annual meeting and workshops) are two
different, not competitive, tracks.
Dann: Thanks to those who brought ideas for other
Dan Fisher: I apprenticed with Albie, then you guys
turned John (my son) on. He likes having the meeting
and workshop both here.
Vote: Motion carried, (to have annual meeting 2001 at
Wildacres; only one opposed (Peter).
Pat: Further discussion on workshops is tabled 'til
tomorrow. We need to do brick and mud. Encourage
discussion in the hall and bring it up later.
Volunteers needed for today's testing
Norbert: We're trying to run two tests today, so we
have to sort things out and get started before lunch.
Volunteers needed: Basically, it's taking temperature
readings every half hour at eight or nine points on
the heater, and fueling -- weigh 50 lbs., know the
moisture content, and measure circumference of wood
for four consecutive fuelings.
Use Jerry's thermometer and mine to get two different
readings. It's best to have certified heater masons
volunteer so they can earn one continuing-ed point.
Norbert: I'm setting up a spread sheet. Someone needs
to volunteer for data entry. And someone to take
stack temperature. Volunteer for one day--the test
will run 'til 8 or 9 pm.
We'll train someone how to use the Thermo-anonometer.
Anyone else (besides the "official" volunteers) should
feel free to take all the readings you want.
ADJOURN TO BRICKS-AND-MUD AREA FOR THE REST OF THE
THURSDAY, APRIL 20
Election of Officers
Report of election committee: Pat (president and
Norbert (secretary) are declining re-election.
Slate: Jerry Frisch for president and Gary Hart,
secretary; Rod Zander again for treasurer and John
LaGamba again for vice president. No nominations from
Dann: Jerry's always at the HPA caucus, the ASTM
meeting, this past year at HPA--which has all made a
tremendous difference for us. He's there for the
building codes, etc. His involvement is very valuable
to us now and in the years to come. We wouldn't have
joined if it hadn't been for Jerry. Gary's a big
asset, too, also John LaGamba.
Jay: I met Jerry in the mid-80's when he did a
workshop at a sweep convention, have had a lot of
contact with him and worked with him on various
things through the years, and I think the world of
him. He's knowledgeable and energetic, and he always
come through for you.
Motion to accept slate made, seconded, voted on:
Unanimous acceptance of slate. Norbert remains as web
master, will also be on executive committee as a
Continue testing today
Norbert: We continue testing, taking three sets of
measurements-- the back 4-1/2 inch wall and the two
Norbert's comment on the testing so far: On the
second day we got much lower surface temperatures, due
to the wind. Because the test was outside, the
temperatures from the first day might be higher is the
test were done indoors. On the other hand, the wood
was very dry, which would give you higher temperatures
than with standard 20 percent moisture content wood.
So, they probably balance out.
Norbert: Our main test will be to define a protocol
and argue that it's better than the UL protocol. We
need to determine the fuel load for different heaters,
Today we could repeat what we did yesterday, to beef
up our results, but I think we should burn five loads
today--it's useful to know if the brick passes at five
Rebecca and Ron took oxygen readings yesterday.
Norbert: The first load needs a whole whack of air;
the next loadings need much less oxygen--excess air.
Excess air just moves through the load and get heated
up. Excess air is very important in determining
The European method of determining efficiency is
different from ours. Their 85 percent would translate
to 72 percent U.S. We could conceivably get that up
to 80 percent US.
Peter said that in using his heater, he does a fuel
load and lights it off, then adds a little wood now
and then to have a fire for viewing.
Albie said he has had heaters fail in a year or two
and found out the people were burning the heaters
around the clock--"The real worst case scenario does
Peter: Maybe in warning, we should say, "If you need
protective equipment to reload, you're burning it too
long, too hot."
Someone said that OMNI tested a fireplace with brands
for 12 hours and you could put it right up against
combustibles. [Norbert's Note: Jim Buckley has a
report on his web
Norbert: The retailer or heater mason should tell the
owner the size load of wood he should use, and not to
heat the house with the heater until the house is
finished. Otherwise, there's huge heat loss and
they're apt to over-fire the heater.
"When abusing your heater, be sure to use the proper
Norbert: Once we get the data, I'll get a photo
report of meeting and the data--we can call it a Lopez
Lab field trip--on our MHA web site.
We can tell OMNI we have certified people able to run
Also, we need data to back up the heat storage
capacity and conductivity of different building and
Two teams from yesterday will train the new teams for
today to do fueling and surface and flue gas readings.
ADJOURN TO BRICKS-AND-MUD AREA FOR THE REST OF THE DAY
(which included a wonderful afternoon-into-evening
pizza party to try out Pat's pizza oven)
FRIDAY, APRIL 21
Dealing with various problems and complaints
Pat told about a serious complaint called in to Bev by
one of Steve Bushway's customers. He read the
following letter from Steve: [Editor's Note: Steve
has given us permission to post his letter on the MHA
web site in the Members' Lounge and said he would
Dear Pat: I'm sorry I'm not there to discuss this in
person and enjoy everyone's company and the rockers on
This past year has been a very difficult one for me,
professionally. I had a locally-built Alan Scott
commercial bread oven arch collapse last fall. In an
attempt to speed along the process, the owner
installed heaters to cure the oven and they were at
least 150 degrees F when the concrete cladding was
placed, so it never achieved proper set. The owner
blamed me, collected $17,000 from my insurance and had
one of Alan's guys rebuild it. It was a very
stressful experience for everyone.
Only weeks after the oven claim was settled, I had a
just-built heater facade develop hairline stress
relief cracks, I believe from fitting the loading door
too tight. Evidently, the owner, who I developed no
rapport with during the job, had complaints that he
never confronted me with, but instead voiced to Bev.
So, when this developed, instead of calling me, he
called the building inspector and has had a structural
engineer to make an evaluation. Evidently, he has
lost faith in me and is calling the whole job into
question. Almost seven weeks have passed and I
haven't heard from this client or his engineer. I
hope this is an indication that he has been assured
that the problems he sees are not systemic or
structural and that he did an extreme overreaction.
Time will tell.
Needless to say, I've been internalizing these mishaps
to death during the past few month, trying to
understand the lesson in it. Rather than bore you
with the details, I'd like to summarize some reasons
why I had these things happen.
Lack of Communication was an underlying problem in
both cases. When I am faced with a quiet or
distracted client with whom I need to communicate, I
don't tend to take the initiative to express a request
or concern, or draw out a concern I may suspect is in
the client's mind. With the heater job, I allowed
myself to take the easy way and not engage the client
on signals I was getting that everything wasn't well.
I would remind members that when they get
internet-generated referrals, the prospects may be
coming from a totally different place,
psychologically, from word-of-mouth ones. Don't
assume your reputation precedes you with these people.
All kinds of personalities want heaters: suspicious
[people] as well as trusting ones.
It's easy not to talk about our mistakes. I'm sorry
that in addition to learning from mine, I feel it
necessary to square them with the Association. I am
staying with the integrity and credibility that I know
I have to get past this, and am trusting that I will
be all the better business man, as well as a more
careful craftsman, as a result of this experience.
As a former chimney sweep, I know that State and
National Chimney Sweep Guilds have to deal with
consumer complaints. My position was to take those
complaints seriously. I never considered they might
come from extreme individuals. Until you come across
such a customer and get caught in the web, you just
don't think it will happen to you.
I don't know what the answer is for the MHA regarding
complaints against members. They should certainly be
kept track of. I would be happy to share more details
of my experience with anyone who cares to.
--Sincerely, Stephen Bushway
Pat: Bev has gotten complaints from people from time
to time and right now we have no structure to deal
with complaints. It's a good idea to set up some path
of action when these things come up.
Albie: Steve has contacted me about both jobs. The
second one is still unresolved. Outside "experts" are
being called in. A gifted mason I know (is on his way
now to look at the heater in question. I have not
gone down, but am hoping to do so.
It would be appropriate to put in place some kind of
an understanding that we (MHA) would jump on these
situations when requested. Perhaps some of our
MHA-certified members would be willing, as a peer, to
go to a problem site in their region and give some
feedback. That still hasn't happened on this job, but
might be the thing that would break the impasse. I'm
also concerned, because that was an Albie core. Steve
feels what happened was a result of his workmanship,
not of the components.
A member in trouble could call Bev and say, "I need
help," and members in that region would be on the
ready to respond. When a situation drags on and
reaches impasse, it gets out of the hands of the
Another complaint was called in to Albie about a job
Jerry did. Jerry said the
firebrick failed and the brick company is going to
take care of it.
Albie: "The client and the builder can both feel
isolated. I think this thing of Steve's desperately
needs a job site visit and a meeting with the building
inspector. Steve is barred from the site."
Ben Hurd: The most important thing is to keep the
attorneys out of it and get it settled fast. It'll
never get better.
Rebecca: What did you do, Bev?
Marty: First thing, Bev should contact the MHA member
If it was a job of mine, I would want to know right
away. One of my clients called the main office at
Tulikivi, instead of calling me, and it got back to me
from a Tulikivi dealer. I called the client, who said
a sweep had come and there was a bird's nest that
caused the problem and it's all been taken care of.
Dan Fisher: I don't appreciate the fine print in a
contract, but maybe we could write into a contract
that if the need arises for mediation, MHA becomes a
part of that team.
John LaGamba said that when he spoke to Steve's
client, who thought his heater was a Temp Cast, he
suggested the man take photos and send them to MHA.
We can review the picture and maybe conclude
Some customers are just a pain in the butt, but
sometimes you have a situation that really is a
disaster. At Temp Cast we feel that we have a moral
obligation here. One way is not to refer anyone. Is
there a three-strikes-and-you're-out policy? A
continuing situation looks bad for the industry.
A customer can see a stress crack and go ballistic.
Peter: We're not trained as arbitrators, but we have
to define our level of support. We need to keep a
record of complaints on individual members, but it's
not up to us to resolve those complaints. We can offer
Norbert It should be dealt with right away, but
we're a small association with limited resources, so
there's just so much we can do. In 20 years I've had
problems with three clients, always an older retired
man, and I found I was not to blame myself.
"At one time a lot of masons were making masonry
heaters, but stopped because of callbacks."
Read our occupational analysis of what a heater mason
should do and relations with the client is right up
there in importance.
Bev. A couple of complaints have been due to stove
mason and client relationships.
Rebecca: Ask them to put the complaint in writing,
maybe have a form they can fill out so they have a
Norbert: Ask for photos, a written description, and
ask if they've talked to the mason. Then here it is
in writing in a certain format and with photos. It
eliminates a lot of phone calls.
Then we, the whole membership, need feedback on what
happened, and we can learn from that. You can learn a
thousand-dollar lesson--why did an arch collapse, why
did a heater have a stress crack, etc.
We could have a data base in the lounge on callbacks.
We may not need to identify the mason and brand of
Peter: We could put the technical problem on the
lounge and start a private discussion group.
Norbert: Bev is the right person for the initial
contact on a complaint, not one of us. We need to
have it filtered.
John: Recurring complaints can be the big problem--we
may need to have an ethical and technical review.
Albie: Refine the response process and put it to a
Rod: A few of us in committee should work on it, then
present it to the membership later today. I move that
this be tabled and have a subcommittee work on this.
But we did discuss this a bit further, deciding first
of all that the complainer has to put it in writing
before Bev gets back to him. The procedure might go
1. Ask complainer if he/she has contacted the heater
builder. If not, suggest/insist they do so.
2. Explain what MHA's procedure is--fill out a form.
send photos, etc.
3. Bev calls the heater mason right away, as soon as
she gets off the phone, and then faxes or mails the
form to the complainer.
4. As soon as she receives it, she send a copy of the
written complaint to the mason, also to the executive
and ethics committees. (Do we have an ethics
Bake oven directions in the bread book need revising
Jerry: Directions for building the bake oven in the
bread book are chancy--it will fail. If we're
selling this book at our web site book store (Bread
Builders Book--Hearth Loaves and Masonry Ovens by
Daniel Wing and Alan Scott), are we sanctioning it?
Rod: We nee to inform the authors of our opinion so
they can make a correction.
Jerry volunteered to do this.
Ron Karson wanted to know if we've expanded Bev's
duties as an employee. Rod answered that Bev is a
subcontractor and her contract is reviewed
A problem with some former members
Rod: Some ex-members are still using the MHA logo.
We need to state our policy on misuse or abuse of logo
and take action. Maybe a form letter that says cease
and desist or renew your membership.
Let's look at how HPA and NCSG handle the problem.
So, someone asked, should they send back their MHA
jacket and T-shirt???
Motion made, seconded and carried that a
cease-and-desist order be sent to certain individuals.
Gary noted that it's often easier to re-up than
reprint business cards, checks, stationary, etc.
Books we might order
Norbert: Tom Trout picked up Kachelofen Bau, a German
book that details putting together a kachelofen. It's
a step-by-step illustrated how-to-do-it. It's Very
well done and costs about $60.
Albie: Make a request for a discount purchase if
enough people are interested.
A show of hands on who would buy it determined that we
should probably order at least 10 copies.
o o o
[Conversations during break: Albie and Pat discussed
leaving the bake oven at Wildacres. Thomas, the chef
who made pizzas for us yesterday, is very excited at
the idea and said he would bake in it. We need to ask
Mike, who may not be back till tonight, and a decision
has to be made. If we leave it, we need to insulate
it and finish it off so it will last a year.]
[Another side discussion between Jay and Bev: We
should bring along our brochure and other handouts on
masonry heaters to Wildacres next year to give to
other guests, so we're not educating them about
heaters it on just a one-on-one basis as we're doing
now. They've shown a lot of interest.]
o o o
Norbert reported on preliminary results of testing:
[Editor's Note: More detailed results are online at
Norbert: We got very different results on the two days
because of the wind factor. So we're skewed by the
wind, but still have test points relative to each
other. We need to run a test indoors."
A test heater was built with three different firebox
wall sections. The rear wall was 4.5-inch thick
firebrick. The right wall was a code wall with
4.5-inch firebrick and a 4-inch clay brick facing.
The left wall was 8-inch soapstone.
The heater was fired with four back-to-back loads of
50 lbs hardwood at 14 percent moisture content The
maximum outside surface temperatures on the firebox
were as follows
4.5-inch firebrick: 475 degrees F
Code wall: 210 degrees F.
8-inch soapstone wall: 410 degrees F.
The UL-127 temperature limit for adjacent combustibles
is 117 degrees F above ambient. From previous
testing, it appears that, for a large heater, this
temperature will be reached when the heater surface
temperature is approximately 350 degrees F with a
We've got some data, let's get it on the table. I'm
not interested in writing a report and then keeping it
secret. We can put it on the Lopez labs page, and not
make it public for awhile. [Editor's Note: The
issue of whether or not we got enough consistent data
to make a testing protocol recommendation is still up
in the air .]
Norbert and Jerry did some testing earlier in Jerry's
shop. And it's possible to set up an automatic
Norbert: We could conclude there's no problem with a
code firebox with 4 -inch lining and total 8-inch wall
MHA Brochure Revision
Bev: We're going to finish it this summer. . . I have
it on my computer, and the printer is ready to go. We
need just a few changes in copy, and we have some
photos to go through--we're discussing Gene Hedin's
heater for the cover, and also Rod's. I need a few
volunteers to work with me on this.
Rebecca, Jay and Albie volunteered.
Albie: Perlite (for insulating the bake oven) is
available at Spruce Pine and Vermiculite available at
Marion if we need to finish up the bake oven to leave
Pat: We need to form a committee to look into having
a workshop--in Toronto, at Jay's house, etc. between
now and the next annual meeting.
Albie: People come to us one or two at a time on a
paid basis. I can offer this on-the-job training to
my fellow MHA members for $450 tuition and split it
As for Toronto: I'd be ready to donate a week of my
time to lead a workshop if my expenses are covered.
It should be site built, generic, not from a kit, but
we can talk about kits. And it ought to be for a
non-profit organization, truly a service MHA is doing.
Pat: Before everyone leaves, square away your
finances with Bev.
Dann: I'm going to call Steve and thank him for
sharing his letter.
Pat: We'll clean up this afternoon and either work on
the bake oven to make it last, or tear it down. We're
going to try to leave the bake oven for the staff to
use and hopefully fall in love with over the next
year. Mike may be back this afternoon and we'll run
the idea past him. [Editor's Note: No luck on
leaving the bake oven at Wildacres , due to its
location interfering with trailers and trucks coming
and going behind the barn, so it had to be
I want to thank everybody for the experience of being
your president for the past six years. I thoroughly
enjoyed it and look forward to Jerry's term in office.
Norbert' showed us a computer "slide show" of his
photos on this meeting, including the view from
Pompey's Knob, scenes from the dining room, and action
down at bricks-and-mud.
ADJOURN ANNUAL MEETING 2000